Monday, 28 November 2011

Why Vanguard shouldn't have a time limit, or at least have better rules when time is called.

Thought I've been quite quiet recently which is very unlike me, so decided to talk about something that kinda bothers me, because I like rulings and all that judge shenanigans and I think this is a problem.

I hear from my Vanguard playing friends who attended AFA, that some pro Vanguard player was eliminated cos his opponent dragged game to time, and overguarded like a total scrub.

For those of you unfamiliar with Vanguard, basically if you take 6 damage you lose. Similar to Yugioh, it is perfectly normal to throw the first few damage for free, just as it is to sometimes eat some big push then counter attack, the same concept remains, as long as your life isn't 0, or in Vanguard's case, damage isn't 6, you still have a chance to win.

When Yugioh is brought to time, the current Turn Player will be sitting on Turn 0, and the game ends when Turn 3 is over. Essentially this means both players are given 2 BPs to do anything. Which usually is rush like dogs and defend like Chinese DotA players. The one with the higher LP at the end of Turn 3 wins.

Not trying to slam the organisers, as I heard they did quite a good job considering it was the first major Vanguard event in Singapore, but I feel such a rule is unfair in Vanguard. Yes in Yugioh, we have people who drag game to time too *ahem Wesley*, but almost every meta deck now has some sort of 8000 board all in that can appear, which is what the players tend to turn to during Sudden Death.

However, in Vanguard, this is not the case, even if your entire board's attacks hit, it is unlikely to be able to deal 6 damage in a single turn, as such, 1 point of damage is much more valuable than even 1000 LP in Yugioh terms. Furthurmore, certain decks rely heavily on Counterblast abilities, which require them to take damage. This puts the player in between a rock and a hard place. If he takes the damage, he may lose, if he doesn't take the damage, he may not be able to win.

More importantly, in Yugioh, where during time we just try to push as much damage as possible, basically overexerting like a newb, it is not necessarily bad playing, it could be a form of mindfucking, making your backrow seem extremely protective to your opponent. However, in Vanguard, overguarding is a sign of scrubbiness and lack of foresight. To add on, unlike Yugioh, where some attacks deal less damage, in Vanguard, 1 point of damage from a 5000 Draw Trigger is as good as 1 point of damage from a Counterblasted Dragonic Overlord.

The problem still remains, though, that in a best of three tournament setting, where the stakes are so high, players should not be given an hour and a half to play out their matches, a time limit must be imposed. Still, this would lead to tremendous overguarding in the final game if both players knew that time was going to get called. They may even Mulligan to get a full Trigger hand of 10K guards, which is even noober than noob.

During the Saturday Econ tournaments, usually we just let the players play it out, best of three, everyone there has time anyway and the prizes are not to kill for. At Ah Soo, it seems they adopt a best of one format, which although may not be the greatest, ensures that the games end on time.

From the above two scenarios, we can see two imperfect solutions to the problem at hand. Let the players play it out, or adopt best of one. While both are full of cons, they ensure the game of Vanguard, in all its greatness, is played the way it's supposed to be played. With skill, epic lucksack, and basic arithmetic.

NOTE: I just got that info from heresay, if it isn't true, well this wall of text talks about why you shouldn't make time limits in Vanguard in any case.


  1. Good pt there
    Basiccally, Vanguard is harder to judge than Yu-gi-Oh. Cuz, it is usually the counterblast that makes all the difference. Like counterblast for Overlord, PBD. All crazy effects had a counterblast of 2 or more. But still it kinda balance the game as after the 1st turn of each player, they each will AT LEAST have 2 dmg.

    What you say is right: NO TIME LIMIT for Vanguard.

    there is an error in what you said: " the players may even Mulligan to get a full Trigger hand of 10K guards." But so what? If they got a hand full of 10Ks, how do they ride to the nxt grade? They culd have wasted their entire guarding b4 being able to ride.

    Remember, they Mulligan once b4 starting the match

    Plus what if they just need a 5k guard against a rear guard? Waste hand.

    Statistic shown that if deck is shuffed properly,(with the balance of 4 triggers of each kind) 27.5% of triggers ends up in the dmg zone with 15.5% of a heal trigger (2/8)

    It is the same when vanguard atks and you drive check. Ok you may think "Er, there is grade 3 with twin drive", it overbalnce,However, there is also 2x crit as well.

    Time is the only factor that screws u the game as everything else in the gane is balanced.

  2. Well maybe full trigger hand is overexaggerating, but players may choose not to Mulligan their triggers just for the extra guard and not for superior ride, although it's true that if you misgrade like a scrub you're bound to lose. I cannot help but emphasize the possibility of a Galahad or Tsukyomi superior ride though, if you have a full trigger hand, you can still ride up to Grade 3 with enough luck.
    But of cos Silent Tom in all its broken imba will screw up that full trigger hand of yours.